The Hellish Mantis Discussion Thread

[klepto]

sweet jesus man...your slaving for sure, lol.....looks good so far i cant wait to see the end result.  Given the lower weight ratio compared to the trix....what are you anticipating in performance?  HP?  Torque?

anyway man Jerry your gonna be sick on the road.....

holla

j :twisted:

[Don Fusskinrolla]

The horsepwer output should be the same.  

What could possibly change is the torque.  Remeber that
torque = (Force) x (Perpendicular distance)

It all depends what the distances are from the tranny to the wheels.  But performance wise i can tell you it's gonna be a beast because now the enines has 400lbs. less weight to haul.  This means it's gonna revv like a mo-fo.

The first thing when i got back home from vacation... i didn't even give my mom a kiss i logged on to see the progress... :lol:

[Dr Tweak]

How about a sneak peak right now?



After the last update I went back out and spent a few hours test fitting the 2ZZGE. It's going to take at least a full day to sort out the engine mounts. That's going to be my mission tomorrow, *hopefully* the engine will be in there by the end of the day.

I worked all night last night and went straight to work on the car this morning. I am Le Tired...

*edit* Jerry, call me.

[corollamadness]

damn dat thing is looking good, keep up da good work and pass this man a case of coronas cause he deserve it...

keep up da good work doc.

[Dr Tweak]

Well I got a late start today, I had to pay my debt for that 30 some-odd hour day yesterday. I'm in taking a break and figured I'd give an update. A lot was done today and I've made quite a bit of progress over the past two days. I spent most of today sorting out some issues that will have to be dealt with. I have two of the four mounts done, and the other two aren't too far off. Custom work was need on all but one, so much for the engine bolting up.

I also discovered that the axles will have to be custom, unlike my original understanding. I will be able to take care of that without too much trouble.

The exhaust manifold, on the other hand, is going to be a serious pain. I can't even bolt it to the engine because it hits the firewall. The manifold will have to be modified, along with the head pipe where it attaches.

Getting closer: the engine in it's home position

[SinGularity]

ouch on the exhaust, at least now you know what to do for ur future 2zz swaps :roll:

[Martin11581]

Chris is right,This is history happening, No one has EVER attempted this before. I wonder how many magazines this will be in!  8O  8O

[Martin11581]

I DONT THINK supershyguy has it... are you sure?

[laz]

I DONT THINK supershyguy has it... are you sure?

100% sure that he has it. He was one of the ifrst people to have it done (not him, but a shop) He actually has a JDM Celica GT-S engine. 190 HP I believe.

X

[laz]

I like to see pics or something in regards to the other cars that have swapped 2zz's into a 98-02 corolla. I think we would have heard of it if that was indeed the case.

Not that I don;t believe you, but I still like to see it. Plus rumors are always rumors

[Dr Tweak]

I like to see pics or something in regards to the other cars that have swapped 2zz's into a 98-02 corolla. I think we would have heard of it if that was indeed the case.

Not that I don;t believe you, but I still like to see it. Plus rumors are always rumors

 :roll: Yeah, I would too. supershyguy is the only one that has done it that is really known at all. He did have a shop do it, when I asked him some questions about it he was 100% not willing to help. He wouldn't even give me a pic of his interior! LOL

Anyway X, you aren't going to find info on any of these other rumored cars, because I would have found them by now. Keep in mind that quite a number of people have work done to their cars and don't associate in any online forums. For example, there are very few turbocharged SHOs in the US, only one person that has done it is on SHOforum. But, there are a couple others, pics pop up every now and then.

On top of that, like you pointed out, rumors are rumors. Some people say they have something, but never back it up with pics or other info...

[puertoricanrolla]

heres shyguy's page that shows the 2zz engine. he used to have more but this is the only on the site

http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/213301/2

[laz]

Here are some more pictures from shyguy that are not on his main page:

the J-Spec 2ZZ engine:



The donor front clip of the Celica GT-S



The car while it was getting the swap:



Empty engine bay:





Rear disk conversion:



2ZZ in place:





he has posted all this images on forums at one time or another.

X

[sKiLLs]

Yeah I too have only heard of it done by Shy and now Jerry...

Rumors are simply rumors...

[puertoricanrolla]

nice..thanks prrolla.....all that and no power windows??

your welcome

[Dr Tweak]

then more power to jerry.....maybe all these pics could help jd too

Not a one...  :mad: If I could see the car in person that would be different. No problem though, I've got most of the problems solved or I know how I'm going to.

Here's an interesting thing to note: so far, I have 58 hours into the swap!

58 hours
x$30 an hour
---------------
$1740 and counting!  :lol:

[TheTruth]

DA DA DA DAMNNNN.. hey you need some assistance??.. maybe you can bread me off a piece of that bread  

[Don Fusskinrolla]

seems that wiring always to be the biggest obsticle in all motor swaps.  I got a friend of mine who last week swapped a LS engine for a B18C1... everything was direct bolt on... but now he's in wiring and he get absolutly no spark.  

Good luk jd....

i hope people know that charging $58/hr is cheap!!!  People here in CT are charging almost $70/hr.


JD.... WHERE THE UPDATE?

[Dr Tweak]

JD.... WHERE THE UPDATE?

I might me able to work on it some tomorrow, a little on Monday, but then Tuesday and Wednesday will be full days.  

[Dr Tweak]

think you have an eta on completion?

I'm going to do my best to have it done by the 16th, which will be exactly one month from when it got dropped off.

[Dr Tweak]

Well, no pics for you today guys. I pulled the engine out and put it back in twice, and I have to pull it out one (hopefully) last time to further modify the rear mount.

[SinGularity]

u better figure out how to work everything out so i dont have to pay u a shitload of $ to make a swap for me  :lol:

[Dr Tweak]

Depends on what you want... the s/c is REALLY expensive but it's going to give the most power. Of course you could always buy one and then get the other down the road...

Just so you don't get confused, there is actually a 3ZZFE built by Toyota, I believe it's in the Altis.

I know you guys are really liking the idea of the s/c kit, but I'll be honest with you: a well designed turbo kit is going to be a lot cheaper and make a lot more power. Turbocharging sort of has a bad name because of the fact that so many people don't do it properly, they try to use an FMU and whatnot to control fuel, keep stock pistons, don't use an intercooler...

A well designed turbo will have all the right parts and will have a piggyback or standalone computer that perfectly controls fuel delivery and spark timing. The bottom end will be rebuilt with forged rods and low compression pistons. It will be just as reliable if not more so than the S/C kit, be less expensive, more powerful, and IMHO, is more suited to the high revving 2ZZGE.

But, before you think of getting that much power, I hope you have all of your brake, suspension and *IMPORTANT*>> LSD items taken care of. If you can't get the power to the ground safely, there's no point in having it.

At the very least I would suggest the Quaife, it works extremely well and has a lifetime warranty... you can race the car as much as you want and it will never void the warranty, in fact Quaife sponsors a lot of racing.

[Dr Tweak]

I have a 4EFTE in my garage that needs to be sold so I may possibly be dropping that in, I've got a car parked outside my garage awaiting a 4AGZE swap as soon he sells that 4EFTE, I've got one possibly two SHO 3.2 swaps, one guy who wants a 2JZGTE into a Mk III Supra, another who wants a 3SGTE into a MK1 MR2, and then a number of people who are "interested" in having a swap done, 3SGTE, 4EFTEs, 4AGEs, etc etc...


Finish up the rear mount
Modify exhaust manifold
Modify the axles
Finish the wiring
Build an intake
Modify the shifter assembly
Other odds and ends (need to custom make a clutch line, etc)

about 40 hours of work left, give or take.

The reason why there are horror stories with the 2ZZ and F/I is because the likely never changed out the stock 11.5:1 compression pistons!  8O

[Dr Tweak]

2zz is 11.5 to 1 but who is counting ....looks like you got allot of business coming your way now.....go josh!....how much of that do you think is from the hellish mantis following?

Eh close enough! LOL

I'm really not sure, it's nearly impossible to tell.

[mantisII]

updates?....pictures?.....as i tap my vein

i just wanna O.D. on the stuff.

[Dr Tweak]

Jerry, I think you should get one of those warning stickers but with:

"Warning: This car is equipped with a 2ZZGE engine. blah blah blah...."

Anyway I just got in, no pics since there's no visual difference, but the engine mounts have all been modified and are now all set. The engine is home sweet home. Tomorrow's mission is to get the exhaust done. If I can have that done by the end of the day I will be very happy. If possible in between (while the manifold is getting worked on or whatever) I may play around with the axles and the wiring.


We're getting closer!

[mantisII]

the sticker is a good idea.  kinda like the warning on the rides at six flags............lol
sounds like its gettin close to fun time with my much beloved baby.  now if the snow can stay away for the winter.  thanks for the update jd and as always PhoenixTuning rocks :bowdown:

[Dr Tweak]

I was thinking of this series:



BTW, you better pick up a set of steelies and some badass snow tires, or pick a nice day to come up.

[Dr Tweak]

arent you converting it to the 5 lug?....the stock 16's are really good in the snow

Eventually, but I think Jerry wants to get it before then.

[Don Fusskinrolla]

Seeing how the car is already there and who can do it, and all the parts are there why not just do it...

It'll beat another trip up north and down time. :cool:

[laz]

You allare tough on the guy! Can you only begin to imagine how difficult it can be to convert from 4 lug to 5 lug specially when no one single part of the back hubs of the matrix match up with the 98-02 corolla's? This being that the corolla has a fixed beam in the back. I said just do the engine, and worry about getting it working correctly before even meessing with hubs. Not only that but the matrix has a totally diffeerent offset and I can only imagine the rubbing problems in the back with matrix wheels that probably have a 35+ offset.

Anyway that is just my two cents. I was thinking the other day of all the work that it takes to do something like this swap while I was working on my own car and I take off my hat to Joshua since it is a huge project!

I say just concentrate on the engine, and everything else is secondary.

X

[sKiLLs]

Yeah true! Get that engine done and tweak the engine, once up and running, thereafter...

There's always February to do the axles... Right before the spring hits...  :cool:

And I say Josh gets the month of January off to enjoy the new year and reflect on what he's just done!  :applause:  :thumbsup:  :applause:

[Dr Tweak]

Yeah, the parts from the front of the Matrix are similar but not really compatible, it's possible though. The back I haven't even looked at.

It's likely that the parts from a Celica will be more compatible, and we'll likely explore that option once the engine is up and running.

[Dr Tweak]

I just got in, I have the modified custom manifold.





It's no work of art, but it's totally functional. It's not done yet, once I get the car running I'll most likely get some exhaust cement and a dremel, and fill the rough spots inside and then smooth them out really nice. I'll also clean up and blend the welds on the outside to improve the look. Them are some gorilla welds!!!

I'm going to have some dinner here and then I'm going out to work on the car some more. Tomorrow I'll fix up the rest of the exhaust and hopefully have that all bolted up and done.

[mantisII]

the doc has turned into the mad scientist.  lol.  good job josh, its beautiful.

[mantisII]

just go ahead and have them chrome dipped for me........haha

[Dr Tweak]

just go ahead and have them chrome dipped for me........haha

Actually, having the welds cleaned up and having it ceramic coated would work good.

[asg14]

Hey, thats not a bad idea at all Chris!  You should def try to do that.  I can't wait to see the final product  :twisted:

[Dr Tweak]

Well, I've had a frusterating couple of days. First off, I'm fighting a cold which sucks. Then, all of the stuff that I'm working on right now require special tools (pipe bender, machining tools, etc), so I've been driving to one shop, standing around, paying them, driving back to my shop, testing the stuff out, driving to a different shop, etc. Most of it is done now thankfully, but everything took longer than I wanted.

Friday I'm have to go up to the machine shop and have them modify the hubs, so that I can use the complete Matrix axles. I was hoping to do the 5 lug conversion at the same time, at this point I won't be able to but it will be quite easy, whenever we decide to.

The exhaust is almost all done now, I have to test fit a couple pipes and have them welded, and then bolt everything up, hopefully that will be the finish of the exaust.

Today the last mount was finished and I just have to bolt it up.

Once the above items are done, then I will be able to finish the wiring and start it up.

Jerry, did you fill this thing up with 91 or 93 octane before you dropped it off?

[mantisII]

hope ya get feelin better jd.  it has 93 oct in there now.  give me a call if ya need.

[Dr Tweak]

hope ya get feelin better jd.  it has 93 oct in there now.  give me a call if ya need.

Okay good, one thing I don't have to worry about.

Thanks bud, we're getting there! Did you send out that package?

[Dr Tweak]

josh dont forget to update the official thread....and jerry before you take her home throw a few cans of octane booster in it just in case you have some of the old 87 left in the fuel lines.....by the way are you upgrading the fuel system or using the matrix one?...like fuel pump etc?.....and i hope you are using the xrs oil pump (not sure if the rolla has one) but they are important and vulnerable for the 2zz motor...they are the weakest link in the car.....just looking out

The 2ZZ requires 91 octane, right? So as long as he got 93 he should be fine. The 1ZZ fuel pump will still be sufficient for the 2ZZ, but I may replace it with the matrix one.

What do you mean by the oil pump? If you mean the engine's oil pump, then yeah of course, I didn't take any of that stuff apart.

I haven't updated the official thread yet because I don't really have any good pics, a lot of the stuff done is the sort of thing that doesn't show. Once it's all squared away I'll get some pics of the exhaust and whatnot.

[Dr Tweak]

91 is the minimum octane allowed or it will start to knock really bad....and i remember jerry saying he may have had some residual 87 in it before he filled it up with 93.....and besides it has had the fuel in it for almost a month....so additives couldnt hurt im sure....and as for the fuel questions i was just making sure.....im quite sure you know what your doing but others that are reading this may have also wanted to know....that and it just popped into my head

What did you mean by the oil pump?

BTW have you ever actually had the 2ZZ ping on you? The knock sensor should detect the trace knock and the computer will retard the timing to prevent it, so the performance will be down but it should never let it knock. Unless you're using and aftermarket computer to control timing yourself...

[Dr Tweak]

Yeah I heard that about NJ, just crazy! Oh well...

All engines have oil pumps, and if it goes the engine is toast within seconds. Generally they don't just break though, they slowly start not working as well until you get a flickering low oil pressure light at idle, then it's time for a new one along with rod bearings most likely.

The oil pump sits behind the crank pulley, behind the timing sprocket, and is difficult to access at best. The oil pump may also have to be removed depending on the engine. So yeah, nothing I needed to get into.

[laz]

I am still not sure chris, do you think he should add some octane booster???    

Anyway, I think that things start to get a lot trickier once you start to take the engine apart. Like Josh said every single car has an oil pump, if not they be toast in a minute. But I think that when you rebuild an engine you have to be a lot more careful with debris and such or something like this may happen:






More here:

http://www.corollacustomz.info/index.php?a=topic&t=308&min=135&num=15

This guy in Corolla Customz had such a nice engine rebuild, and then some poop got into his engine not sure if while rebuilding, or after and that is all she wrote. Sad  :mad:  :-(

With the engine transplant this is avoided since the engine is never taken apart. I think what may happen with the matix and all high revving cars is that at high RPM there might be a chance of oil not getting to all the critical parts fast enough, or cool enough. I know I have heard stories of high revving engines doing this, and that is why some get their oil pumps replaced with, not sure on the term, but I think they are called dry sump oil pumps?

GL

X

[Darkest Edge]

One thing that just came into my mind.  Isn't the Matrix XRS tranny 4wd?  If so, don't you need to switch to a Celica gts 6 speed?  I wonder this because the XRS tranny, I'm guessing, splits the power to the back wheel, which the Corolla is fwd.  So you are loosing some power.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Dr Tweak]

I think what may happen with the matix and all high revving cars is that at high RPM there might be a chance of oil not getting to all the critical parts fast enough, or cool enough. I know I have heard stories of high revving engines doing this, and that is why some get their oil pumps replaced with, not sure on the term, but I think they are called dry sump oil pumps?

A dry sump oil pump is more for race cars, to prevent oil from getting on the crankshaft (slowing the engine down), dropping then engine lower for better center of gravity, and for having more oil available to the engine. A dry sump will also prevent the extremely rare case where on hard cornering the oil pools up on one side of the oil pan and the pickup tube isn't allowed to get oil, which may be what you're thinking of, X.

[mantisII]

hey josh,  so what u got left on my baby?  think if i have to share my wifes car much longer she is gonna strangle me, or vice versa. lol

[Dr Tweak]

Jerry, I know this is taking longer than you had hoped, if you want you can borrow my SHO. You'll just have to come get it with someone, but then when you come to pick up your car you won't need anyone to come with you.

-Joshua